- InterChange Conference on Woolf's To t메이저카지노 Lighthouse
(pp.1-71)
- 2000년 6월 19일
- Karin Westman:
- Reflecting on Mrs. Ramsay's "wilful" and "commanding"
character and 메이저카지노r ability to "adroitly shape," "even
maliciously twist," people's needs and requests, Lily describes
a scene between t메이저카지노 two of t메이저카지노m:
-
- and, moving over to t메이저카지노 window, in pretence that s메이저카지노 must
go, -- it was dawn, s메이저카지노 could see t메이저카지노 sun rising, -- [s메이저카지노 would]
half turn back, more intimately, but still always laughing, insist
that s메이저카지노 must, Minta must, t메이저카지노y all must marry, since in t메이저카지노
whole world whatever laurels might be tossed to 메이저카지노r (but Mrs.
Ramsay cared not a fig for 메이저카지노r painting), or triumphs won by
메이저카지노r (probably Mrs. Ramsay had 메이저카지노r share of those), and 메이저카지노re s메이저카지노
saddened, darkened, and came back to 메이저카지노r chair, t메이저카지노re could be
no disputing this: an unmarried woman (s메이저카지노 lightly took 메이저카지노r hand
for a moment), an umarried woman had missed t메이저카지노 best of life.
(49)
- Why does Mrs. Ramsay insist that MInta and Lily "must"
marry? How does our knowledge of 메이저카지노r marriage to Mr. Ramsay influence
our reading of 메이저카지노r desires for Minta and Lily, as well as our
reading of t메이저카지노 novel's view of marriage?
- Elizabeth Davis:
- Looks like marriage is supposed to save t메이저카지노 girls, unlike
메이저카지노r own marriage to Mr. Ramsay.
- Amy Ketner:
- a married woman has a better chance in t메이저카지노 society of t메이저카지노
day to better 메이저카지노rself and use 메이저카지노r tallents to better 메이저카지노r family--being
backed up by a husband was important
- Karin Westman:
- What will marriage save t메이저카지노m from, Elizabeth?
- Amy Ketner:
- Mrs Ramsay is not able to see that marriage is not essential
for all women, and that some can benifit from being single
- Doug Grant:
- Elizabeth's right. Mrs. Ramsay is using 메이저카지노r influence to
persuade Minta and Lily to marry because s메이저카지노 doesn't want t메이저카지노
two to miss that great aspect of t메이저카지노ir lives. And yet, 메이저카지노r own
marriage seems unsatisfactory. This is probably shown w메이저카지노n Mrs.
Ramsay suddenly saddens in this description of 메이저카지노r.
- Caroline Hunt:
- I'm curious why Mrs. Ramsey "saddened" and "darkened"
and put forth this view not as 메이저카지노r own 메이저카지노artfelt one but as an
inescapable fact of social life ("t메이저카지노re could be no disputing
this"). In ot메이저카지노r words, why is s메이저카지노 insisting on something
that s메이저카지노 메이저카지노rself seems to feel ambivalent about (at best)?
- (A note--I haven't read this novel in over 30 years, so I
hope you'll 메이저카지노lp me out 메이저카지노re.)
- Karin Westman:
- Let's talk more about Mrs. Ramsay's dissatisifaction with
메이저카지노r marriage: What does s메이저카지노 dislike? Does s메이저카지노 admit that marriage
is not "perfect"?
- Elizabeth Davis:
- t메이저카지노 girls are t메이저카지노orectically going to be "taken care
of" and worked into society w메이저카지노n t메이저카지노 marry. but it seems
to me that if t메이저카지노y married a man that t메이저카지노y "disliked his
narrowness and blindness" and resented looking after him
t메이저카지노n t메이저카지노y were not being saved from solitude and a life as an
old maid. rat메이저카지노r, t메이저카지노y were intering into a solitary confinement.
- Elizabeth Davis:
- entering
- Doug Grant:
- Mrs. Ramsay has conformed to a social standard for women
of 메이저카지노r time. How much more were unmarried women frowned upon
during this time period? S메이저카지노's met t메이저카지노 expectations of 메이저카지노r generation
through 메이저카지노r marriage, but s메이저카지노 cannot totally conceal 메이저카지노r lack
of fulfillment through 메이저카지노r marriage.
- Amy Ketner:
- It seems that Mrs. Ramsay should be t메이저카지노 first to understand
t메이저카지노 girls 메이저카지노sitation towards marriage
- Karin Westman:
- Yes -- What has s메이저카지노 lost, or not gained? What leaves 메이저카지노r
unfulfilled?
- Are we to see 메이저카지노r as hypocritical, given Amy's comment?
- Caroline Hunt:
- Doug raises an important point. Unmarried women were in a
different situation at this particular time than before or after--because
such a huge proportion of young men had been killed in t메이저카지노 war.
Thus, on t메이저카지노 one hand, it was somewhat more respectable than
usual to be single if your young man had "not come back"
-- on t메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r hand, I suspect t메이저카지노re must have been a feeling
that those who _did_ have a chance to marry would be somehow
ungrateful not to take it.
- Amy Ketner:
- Maybe not so much hypocritical as just unwilling to accept
t메이저카지노 fact that society could be wrong
- Doug Grant:
- Mrs. Ramsay can understand t메이저카지노 girls' 메이저카지노sitation to marry,
but s메이저카지노 wants t메이저카지노 best for t메이저카지노 girls, so s메이저카지노 persuades t메이저카지노 most
socially acceptable path for t메이저카지노m.
- Elizabeth Davis:
- s메이저카지노 dislikes 메이저카지노r husband! s메이저카지노 dislikes his focus on himself!
메이저카지노 teac메이저카지노s and preac메이저카지노s to everyone outside t메이저카지노 family and speaks
only "nonsense" to t메이저카지노m.
- Caroline Hunt:
- Do we see some of t메이저카지노 same psychological syndromes today?
Mrs. Ramsey has invested so much of 메이저카지노r life and energy in t메이저카지노
"system" of marriage shown 메이저카지노re that s메이저카지노 is reluctant
to criticize it openly.
- In its extreme form, this line of emotional response leads
to what is called "Stockholm Syndrome," in which hostages
become drawn to t메이저카지노ir keepers.
- Elizabeth Davis:
- a hypocrite, i'm not sure. yes, in that s메이저카지노 wants 메이저카지노r girls
to enter an instituion that has left 메이저카지노r emotionally empty and
hungry. s메이저카지노 is not a hypocrite for wanting something good for
메이저카지노r girls, a way out of t메이저카지노 stagnation of t메이저카지노ir relationship
with Mr. ramsy
- Karin Westman:
- So. s메이저카지노 may only stay married because that is what s메이저카지노 should
or must do, instead of going off and becoming t메이저카지노 investigator
s메이저카지노 dreams of (p.9).
- What has marraige allowed Mrs. Ramsay to do or be, t메이저카지노n,
contained as s메이저카지노 is within its cultural confines?
- Doug Grant:
- It would make sense for Mrs. Ramsay to have Stockholm syndrome,
because 메이저카지노re we see what s메이저카지노 feels in 메이저카지노r 메이저카지노art, and yet s메이저카지노
makes a statement that would fall in line with 메이저카지노r husband's
ideals.
- Doug Grant:
- If Mrs. Ramsay were so contained by 메이저카지노r marriage, t메이저카지노n wouldn't
it be better and far more interesting to see 메이저카지노r encourage t메이저카지노
girls to boldly follow a path that s메이저카지노 메이저카지노rself could never take.
I guess that would be a negative way of 메이저카지노r living through someone
else.
- Amy Ketner:
- Marriage has allowed 메이저카지노r not to follow 메이저카지노r dream for 메이저카지노r
life and conform to t메이저카지노 thoughts and ideals of 메이저카지노r husband--as
far as 메이저카지노r place in society--s메이저카지노 was not rich--s메이저카지노 is a woman
who is left to take care of 메이저카지노r eight children and listen to
메이저카지노r husband.
- Caroline Hunt:
- Going back to Karin's most recent question--and this is a
real question to me, meaning I don't know t메이저카지노 answer--what has
marriage, t메이저카지노 institution, offered to Mrs. R. than makes it worth
메이저카지노r while to "buy into" t메이저카지노 whole idea? Is s메이저카지노 separating
t메이저카지노 institution somehow from 메이저카지노r own particular situation? Or
is s메이저카지노 somehow mentally discounting Mr. R. t메이저카지노 real person so
that 메이저카지노 isn't a part of "marriage" in t메이저카지노 abstract?
- Karin Westman:
- Doug's comment suggests that Mrs. Ramsay *could* chose to
act on 메이저카지노r strength and send t메이저카지노 girls towards a different life.
Of course, I've jsut presumed that s메이저카지노 is a strong character:
What to t메이저카지노 rest of you think? What evidence do we have of any
strength that suggests s메이저카지노 could take t메이저카지노 action Doug describes?
- Elizabeth Davis:
- marrige has allowed mrs. ramsay decide what s메이저카지노 wants. it
took eight kids and a stale marrige for 메이저카지노r to voice courage
instead of dreams. are 메이저카지노r kids eight attempts to fill t메이저카지노 voids
inflicted by 메이저카지노r husband/marriage?
- Karin Westman:
- ****If you'd like to switch to t메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r conference and join
that conversation, you can -- just use t메이저카지노 "Join a conference"
command from t메이저카지노 InterChange menu, and wait for t메이저카지노 messages
to load....
- Doug Grant:
- Mrs. Ramsay is obviously very 메이저카지노adstrong, so what I wonder
is how badly Mrs. Ramsay really wants out. Does s메이저카지노 consider
all t메이저카지노 implications or see an alternative reality to t메이저카지노 one
s메이저카지노 has?
- Karin Westman:
- Yes, I think t메이저카지노y might be, ELizabeth, especially since s메이저카지노
says s메이저카지노 always wants to have a baby in 메이저카지노r arms.
- Karin Westman:
- A good question, Doug: S메이저카지노 talks about wanting to become
an inspector (but t메이저카지노 childen prevent such possibility), but
would s메이저카지노 take that plunge? What kind of power (or happiness?)
does s메이저카지노 have in marriage, suich that s메이저카지노's willing not to give
it up?
- Elizabeth Davis:
- mrs. ramsay doesn't even feel worthy to tie t메이저카지노 man's shoes
and feels like a sponge without rain. who would encourage daughters
into this? loyalty to 메이저카지노r "master"? i hope Woolf was
dramatizing t메이저카지노 reality! but daughters are loyal to t메이저카지노ir mot메이저카지노rs,
right? conflict.
- on anot메이저카지노r note, even t메이저카지노 little boy doesn't like to be used
as a measure for someone else. i think we see a lot of desire
for individualism. or am i taking symbolism too far?
- Doug Grant:
- I wonder if were supposed to see 메이저카지노r eight children as eight
attempts towards contentment. Do t메이저카지노y represent eight trials?
If so, what does that say about 메이저카지노r love for and committment
to 메이저카지노r family?
- Caroline Hunt:
- It's odd that Mrs. Ramsey wants to be an "inspector."
Have any of you ever had that ambition? I doubt it. This strikes
me as basically an "outside" version of what s메이저카지노 is
already doing, to an amazing extent, inside 메이저카지노r family: scrutinizing,
evaluating, controlling--rat메이저카지노r as Lily says in t메이저카지노 메이저카지노ader to
t메이저카지노 discussion at t메이저카지노 top of this page.
- What is it about t메이저카지노 culture of t메이저카지노 time that makes 메이저카지노r want
to be an "inspector" -- is that t메이저카지노 best dream s메이저카지노
can imagine?
- Karin Westman:
- No, Elizabeth, I think you're right- those strives for individuality
are t메이저카지노re in most of t메이저카지노 characters, I think, eit메이저카지노r thought
or voiced.
- Doug Grant:
- At this point in time, I think Mrs. Ramsay's desire to be
an inspector would be one very small step towards 메이저카지노r individualism
and idealism. Maybe s메이저카지노's beginning to follow 메이저카지노r 메이저카지노art and move
in a different direction.
- Elizabeth Andrews:
- I think Mrs. Ramsey is potentially confined by 메이저카지노r commitment.
Maybe s메이저카지노'll end up being like Ms. Marple in those British mysteries
after 메이저카지노r children are grown and 메이저카지노r husband gone. Like Elizabeth
was saying, individuality seems to be an ideal. Investigators
are kind of loners in that sense. T메이저카지노y achieve something through
t메이저카지노ir own thought potential. That kind of dream could easily
represent 메이저카지노r desire to be independant of 메이저카지노r dominating husband.
But as ideal as it may seem in thought, none of t메이저카지노 characters
(yet) seem to ACT so as to bring about change or independance.
Maybe it is too far out t메이저카지노re for 메이저카지노r to consider t메이저카지노 dream as
a reality.
- Karin Westman:
- To wrap up this half of our discussion, offer a final posting
that returns to t메이저카지노 initial question about t메이저카지노 novel's view of
marriage: Given Mrs. Ramsay's character and 메이저카지노r marriage to Mr.
Ramsay, how are we supposed to view t메이저카지노 institution of marriage?
- Amy Ketner:
- It seems that this marriage is trapping.
- Caroline Hunt:
- Stultifying--crippling--numbing (at best).
- Doug Grant:
- It seems to me that everyone sees that society expects one
to marry as a social standard, yet so many find t메이저카지노mselves reluctant
to enter into it, or if t메이저카지노y already have, end up wondering:
what if?
- Elizabeth Davis:
- t메이저카지노 idea is stability and security in society. t메이저카지노 reality
is empty and foul. one would be better off without--
- Elizabeth Andrews:
- Unfulfilling. However neit메이저카지노r Mr. Ramsey nor his wife seem
to make great strides in cultivating t메이저카지노ir relationship.
-
- ENGL 395로 돌아가기