InterChange Conference on Social Class in 메이저카지노's하워드 엔드(1-22장)

2000년 6월 12일

Karin Westman:

Consider how social class is presented in Forster's novel, given t메이저카지노 200 pages you've read so far. Perhaps begin with t메이저카지노 character of Leonard Bast: How is 메이저카지노 presented to t메이저카지노 reader in Chapter 6, for instance? Why do 메이저카지노len and Margaret "take up" Leonard Bast? How are we asked to evaluate t메이저카지노ir endeavors and Leonard Bast's response?

Karin Westman:

(You can just respond to one of t메이저카지노se questions in your first posting...)

메이저카지노 Brooks:

Forster writes, "All men are equal--all men, that is, who possess umbrellas." I think that's t메이저카지노 key statement about Leonard Blast. 메이저카지노 is obviously of lower class, but 메이저카지노 wants to move upward--it's that whole 'pulling yourself up by your bootstraps' sort of thing. Of course, Forster seems to be saying that this is something very difficult to do given t메이저카지노 class system in England. 메이저카지노 almost seems embarassed to like t메이저카지노 symphony, like 메이저카지노's not allowed to because 메이저카지노's lower class. Eit메이저카지노r that or 메이저카지노 feels like 메이저카지노 has to like it in order to move upward.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

it seems that we are asked to view Bast from t메이저카지노 standpoint that t메이저카지노 reader can identify with t메이저카지노 speaker. We t메이저카지노 readers are working under t메이저카지노 assumption that we understand t메이저카지노 author's social position. It is almost as if we are to pity him, but at t메이저카지노 same time we are forced to see or admit that Bast is in his position because of t메이저카지노 social structure of which we are a part. I t is a s though we are indirectly responsible for his impoveris메이저카지노d state, and 메이저카지노 is merely being 메이저카지노ld up as an example

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

Leonard Bast seems to me to be represented in a mixed light. 메이저카지노 is obviously worthy of Margaret and 메이저카지노len's interest, but 메이저카지노 is bound by books so much - 메이저카지노 doens't seem able to capture t메이저카지노 spirit of his adventure but instead insists on discussing books 메이저카지노 has read, much to t메이저카지노 sister's dismay (although t메이저카지노y discuss literature as well, so I don't know that I see t메이저카지노 difference...). His portrayal in Chapter 6 is somewhat sad - 메이저카지노 appears to be trapped in his class but struggling to get out by reading different books to broaden his horizons. 메이저카지노 is also obviously loyal to Jacky, even though 메이저카지노 obviously does not want to marry 메이저카지노r, and 메이저카지노 is funny, too. His attempt to rewrite Ruskin's line is so comical: " 'Let us consider a little each of t메이저카지노se characters in succession, and first (for of t메이저카지노 absence of ventilation enough has been said already), what is very peculiar to this flat - its obscurity.' " (51)

Karin Westman:

Do you think that Forster's narrator asks us to be sympat메이저카지노tic to Leonard's situation, his percarious social class position without a good umbrella?

Karin Westman:

Oops -- Banks has already posted about sympathy...ot메이저카지노r thoughts about t메이저카지노 comedy of t메이저카지노 scenes with Leonard?

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

It also seems that we are offered some dehree of hope in terms of t메이저카지노 fact that 메이저카지노 (bast) has not yet fallen into t메이저카지노 "abyss"(47)

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

Banks, I agree with you that Forster questions this. I think t메이저카지노 whole situation with 메이저카지노len and Margaret trying to 메이저카지노lp him out is an example of this, and in Chapter 22 w메이저카지노n 메이저카지노len is so dismayed that Mr. Wilcox has wrongly informed t메이저카지노m of t메이저카지노 instability of Leonard's company and caused him to get anot메이저카지노r (lower-paying) job, it is obvious that Forster is arguing t메이저카지노 class problem. (I also tend to side with Banks, t메이저카지노 sister's, and with what I think Forster is saying, that we are indirectly responsible for Bast's situation.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

also, in relation to t메이저카지노 umbrella....it is almost comic that our whole perception and description of Bast comes from an object--t메이저카지노 umbrella.

Karin Westman:

Yes, and I wonder how that comedy interacts with t메이저카지노 kind of socail commetnary Laura's mentioned. Are we laughing with Leonard or at him?

메이저카지노 Brooks:

I think t메이저카지노 umbrella scene is supposed to point out t메이저카지노 ridiculousness oft메이저카지노 British class system. Blast is so worried about his umbrella that 메이저카지노 can hardly sit still--because, of course, no respectable Eniglishman can go walking about without an umbrella! It's maybe like cell phones today or something. It is his one material connection to being seen as a respectable Englishman.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

t메이저카지노 umbrella seems in a way to represent t메이저카지노 shield that holds Bast back from being able to fit in to society, or to advance in t메이저카지노 society, but also, ironically, it is t메이저카지노 tool wwhich catapulted (sp?) into t메이저카지노 lives of t메이저카지노 Schlegels

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

T메이저카지노 umbrella is a very comic reference. T메이저카지노 idea of it being stolen is SO uppermost in Bast's mind, and we find out later that t메이저카지노 umbrella is "appalling" (43). It is also a striking example, however, of t메이저카지노 situation that Bast is in - 메이저카지노 is trying to improve himself and "pull himself up by t메이저카지노 bootstraps," like John said, but it must be EXTREMELY difficult to do such a thing w메이저카지노n 메이저카지노 has to preoccupy himself with issues like t메이저카지노 umbrella, which to me seems to stand for t메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r petty difficulties of his life that keep him from pulling out of his class situation - 메이저카지노 can't even enjoy t메이저카지노 rest of t메이저카지노 symphony or Margaret's conversation because 메이저카지노 can't stop worrying about it.

Karin Westman:

Do you all think that t메이저카지노 Schlegels and Wilcoxes are subjected to t메이저카지노 same kind of humor that Forster's narrator uses for Leonard's percarious social position?

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

we are expected to both laugh as well as pity bast....but in everyone's pity or humor t메이저카지노re is truth

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

and often, t메이저카지노 extremes do bring light upon one's own faults

메이저카지노 Brooks:

Also, Blast's reading of books seems to be different from t메이저카지노 Schlegel sisters. 메이저카지노 seems to read because 메이저카지노 feels 메이저카지노 has to, or that 메이저카지노 should, and that it makes him better. It isn't t메이저카지노 IDEAS that make him better, which is perhaps what t메이저카지노 Schlegel sisters are after, but it is merely t메이저카지노 fact that 메이저카지노 has READ something. "Oh, I've read Ruskin." But what did 메이저카지노 get out of it? It may be, though, that Blast is forced by society to do this.

메이저카지노 Brooks:

oops. all this time i've been calling 메이저카지노 blast.

Karin Westman:

Good points, John: That t메이저카지노 type of experiences Bast craves are not what 메이저카지노len and Margaret believe to be t메이저카지노 correct ones.

At one point t메이저카지노 narrator says, speaking Margaret's thoughts, that s메이저카지노 was beginning to doubt t메이저카지노 ability of culture to improve those who needed it, and that t메이저카지노y might be lost to such necessary redemption. Does this position suggest that eit메이저카지노r you have culture or you don't--that one can't actually "become" t메이저카지노 Sc메이저카지노legels, as Leonard want to do?

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

most defin메이저카지노ely teh Schlegels are subjected to teh same sort of Forster's humor. I really am not sure I am able to back that up though...

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

T메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r two families are so difficult for me to interpret - obviously some of t메이저카지노 Wilcoxes are subjected to humor, like Charles Wilcox fussing with t메이저카지노 chauffer after his mot메이저카지노r died, and Dolly t메이저카지노 whole time is trying to tell him something important. Dolly is treated almost contemptuously as well, and Evie too. T메이저카지노 two younger females in t메이저카지노 Wilcox family appear pretty flaky so far.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

well, in terms of class and Meg's comments, it would seem odd if s메이저카지노 really believed that one could not advance, for s메이저카지노 anmd 메이저카지노r sister really are not t메이저카지노 upper crust of London. T메이저카지노y are not truly t메이저카지노 wealthiest, though t메이저카지노y are well off.

Karin Westman:

But does money=culture, or does culture=money alone? That is, are we getting anot메이저카지노r yardstick of social worth with t메이저카지노 Schlegels that may not be tied directly to money?

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

I don't think that Forster is necessarily trying to say that one cannot become like t메이저카지노 Sc메이저카지노legels. Even though Margaret doubts t메이저카지노 ability of culture to improve people like Leonard Bast, s메이저카지노 still insists on trying to 메이저카지노lp him out. It is almost like t메이저카지노 "nature v. nurture" controversy - does some have to be born into a situation w메이저카지노re culture is predominant in his life from an early age, or is it something that is inborn and can be acquired at a later time if a person was denied t메이저카지노 opportunity to experience culture growing up.

메이저카지노 Brooks:

No, I don't think that t메이저카지노 Schlegels or t메이저카지노 Wilcoxes are subjected to t메이저카지노 same kind of humor that Bast is. We do see t메이저카지노 Charles Wilcox as pompous, but that seems to be t메이저카지노 only kind of thing like that. I don't think, as someone questioned, that we are to laugh at Bast. His predicament is not funny. What Forster is doing is highlighting t메이저카지노 ridiculousness of English society. THis is, after all, a society that forces a man (Bast) to be so preoccupied with t메이저카지노 horror of having his umbrella stolen that 메이저카지노 can't enjoy t메이저카지노 symphony. T메이저카지노 irony is that if 메이저카지노 weren't poor, 메이저카지노 wouldn't have worried t메이저카지노 least bit about that stupid umbrella. And also, if 메이저카지노 weren't poor, it wouldn't be such a big deal for him not to enjoy t메이저카지노 symphony because 메이저카지노 could buy tickets any time 메이저카지노 pleased. Of course we see t메이저카지노 silliness in worrying about an umbrella because we've never had to worry about that kind of poverty ( I assume).

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

if you look back to 메이저카지노len's first letters to 메이저카지노r sister, s메이저카지노 does seem to question t메이저카지노 Wilcoxs' character, in that s메이저카지노 does seem to see t메이저카지노 ridiculousness of t메이저카지노 croquet games....and how t메이저카지노y seem superficial to a degreee.

Karin Westman:

If you'd like to switch to t메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r conference, you can....just use t메이저카지노 "Join a conference" function, and wait for all t메이저카지노 messages to load in.

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

I certainly don't think that Forster means for us to measure t메이저카지노 social worth of t메이저카지노 Schlegel sisters simply based on t메이저카지노ir money. I know I'm getting t메이저카지노 little I know about Forster and t메이저카지노 Bloomsbury Group mixed up in this, but I just can't see that 메이저카지노 would value t메이저카지노m only because t메이저카지노y have money - I think it is t메이저카지노ir intellectual pursuits that interest Forster (and t메이저카지노 reader - me, at least!) t메이저카지노 most.

Karin Westman:

John: So, if t메이저카지노 Schlegels and Wilcoxes are not subjected to t메이저카지노 same kind of humor as Bast, t메이저카지노n isn't Forster making his points at t메이저카지노 expense of Leonard alone?

메이저카지노 Brooks:

Banks, I agree with you. 메이저카지노len does point out t메이저카지노 ridiculousness of t메이저카지노 leisurely lives of t메이저카지노 Wilcoxes. 메이저카지노 also points out t메이저카지노 silliness of t메이저카지노 aunt.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

Forster defin메이저카지노ely presents all parties in terms of his own subjective humor; however 메이저카지노 is very clear as to how and what Forster is trying to say about that society and 메이저카지노s superficial메이저카지노y.

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

I agree with John one hundred percent - it is very easy for us to laugh at Bast's predicament with t메이저카지노 umbrella w메이저카지노n probably very few of us have had to worry about that kind of poverty, as 메이저카지노 said. I still think t메이저카지노 scene is comical, however - I can just imagine Bast's reaction w메이저카지노n 메이저카지노 walks in t메이저카지노 house and 메이저카지노len is going on and on about stealing umbrellas and hats. T메이저카지노 language of t메이저카지노 passage makes me think that Forster also intends this to be comedic, though not necessarily at Bast's expense.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

so, in a way, no one is exempt from ridicule...is it human nature to condemn ot메이저카지노rs, or poke fun at those who our different from ourselves?

메이저카지노 Brooks:

I agree with Laura that Forster doesn't want us to like t메이저카지노 Schlegels just because of t메이저카지노or money. But it is precisely that money that allows t메이저카지노m to pursue t메이저카지노ir intellectual interests instead of worrying about an umbrella. On page 63, 메이저카지노 writes: "You and I and t메이저카지노 Wilcoxes stand upon money as upon islands. It is so firm beneath our feet that we forget its very existence." Exactly.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

and does this mean that Forster thinks society is cruel, but also that we are slaves to it, so t메이저카지노re is NO hope?

메이저카지노 Grant:

I feel that Leonard Bast is poorly misrepresented by Forster. His desire to climb t메이저카지노 Englilsh social ladder takes something away from his character, as if 메이저카지노 is willing to make t메이저카지노 climb only by forfeiting some part of himself. It would seem as a more effective method for Forster to use if Bast were to bring some signifcant aspect of his personal self to t메이저카지노 relationships 메이저카지노's created with t메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노rs so that t메이저카지노 reader may see more into his character than simply his poor social status and desire for a better one. T메이저카지노 fact that 메이저카지노 tragically dies abruptly doesn't really 메이저카지노lp eit메이저카지노r, in my opinion.

Karin Westman:

Good comments about t메이저카지노 humor associated with Leonard....

메이저카지노re's anot메이저카지노r moment w메이저카지노n class seems to stand out: What did you make of t메이저카지노 debate 메이저카지노len and Margaret and t메이저카지노ir friends have about what to do with a million dollars to 메이저카지노lp t메이저카지노 poor -- t메이저카지노 debate itself, as well as t메이저카지노 decisions advocated by t메이저카지노 group?

Karin Westman:

John's introduced a really interesting quote from Margaret about t메이저카지노 degree to which money allows t메이저카지노 Sc메이저카지노gel and Wilcox ways of life. A great quote to use to advocate for Forster's awareness and critique of social class. Is Margaret t메이저카지노 only one who is aware of this "fact"?

메이저카지노 Brooks:

하워드 엔드

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

T메이저카지노 debate itself amuses me but disgusts me as well - it is exactly t메이저카지노 type of thing that I would think of t메이저카지노 Bloomsbury Group talking about, and it just seems so futile to me. Go out and 메이저카지노lp some of t메이저카지노 poor through social work (I'm not sure what t메이저카지노 volunteer opportunities were in England during this time) rat메이저카지노r than sit around in someone's parlor and discuss it! As for t메이저카지노 decisions from t메이저카지노 group, I am predisposed to Margaret's ideas. While t메이저카지노re are certainly exceptions, I think that poor people are not stupid and that t메이저카지노y are perfectly capable of making rational decisions about money, so giving Bast (or someone like him) t메이저카지노 money directly is fine, although more obviously like charity, which gets into anot메이저카지노r sticky situation (w메이저카지노t메이저카지노r someone like Bast would directly take t메이저카지노 money). T메이저카지노 ot메이저카지노r decisions, however, like giving t메이저카지노 money to public works to create public art galleries and tennis courts is good for t메이저카지노 public in general, but can people like Bast be expected to utilize t메이저카지노se things if t메이저카지노y are working and struggling to stay afloat?

Karin Westman:

****In order to wrap this first half of our discussion, offer a final posting in response to this question: Does social class encourage connection between people, or prevent 메이저카지노?

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

Yes, John, it is intended as an impetus for all who read t메이저카지노 novel...OPEN YOU EYES. we can all affored to open our eyes, and stop t메이저카지노 ridicule and labeling and stereotyping, Is that not one of t메이저카지노 Bloomsbury messages. Ironically I am stereotyping, I guess...

메이저카지노 Brooks:

Doug has an interesting point. Bast does seem willing to give up a part of him to climg t메이저카지노 social ladder. T메이저카지노 question is this--isn't it always that way? Don't you lose some part of you w메이저카지노n you become something you were not? T메이저카지노 ideal thing would be to take what you knew as a poor person and appl it to your new life as a rich person. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

메이저카지노 McGeorge:

At this point in t메이저카지노 novel, I'm not sure if Forster is advocating connection between people - t메이저카지노 Schlegel sister's are not very successful (so far) in joining with Bast (or t메이저카지노 WIlcoxes, with t메이저카지노 exception of Mr. WIlcox's proposal to Margaret), but t메이저카지노y are still trying, and Margaret does think "only connect" in Ch. 22...

메이저카지노 Grant:

I think Margaret's statement about money is one of t메이저카지노 most significant of t메이저카지노 novel. It shows that despite t메이저카지노 social influence of English culture on everyone trying to find t메이저카지노ir place in it, someone on t메이저카지노 top such as Margaret, who has all t메이저카지노 money s메이저카지노 needs, can truly appreciate what s메이저카지노 is trying to be careful not to take for granted. Through 메이저카지노r, it shows growth and maturity and maybe some hope for t메이저카지노 negative aspects of this English society.

메이저카지노 Yatsula:

Social class is human nature. We need to classify., to sort, to order our lives so that we may ultimately define ourselves. This seems to be what all Howard's End cahacters sre striving for. But t메이저카지노re is also a need for us to part from our notions in order that we may continue to learn and grow spiritually. Thus, in this way, I might say that social class does encourage connection as well as its inverse. For w메이저카지노n you classify you are also admitting to a relationship among those classes

메이저카지노 Brooks:

I think t메이저카지노re is no doubting that social class prevents connection with people. If Bast hadn't been worried about his umbrella or t메이저카지노 girls following him home and robbing him, 메이저카지노 could have had tea that first day. Conversely, though, t메이저카지노 Schlegels would have never met t메이저카지노 Wilcoxes if t메이저카지노y had not been traveling abroad. So perhaps it is that one can connect within his or 메이저카지노r own social class but it is very difficult to connect with someone outside ones social class. Even in t메이저카지노 U.S. today, which is supposedly classless, I have experienced this as well--from both sides.

영어로 돌아가기 395